The next in the series to make you think about things up front. Each of you will answer differently and you will all be right, or maybe wrong. It isn’t a sure thing with definitive Yes/No answers. There are no rights and wrongs only something to consider and plan for.
You are looking down at three armed bikers through a scope. In front of them is your entire family on their knees. The leader is calling for you to come down or he will kill every one of them. He promises that you can all go free if you give yourself up and tell them where your food is.
There is just you, nobody is coming to help, with a semi auto .243 and 20 rounds of ammo. They is no cover where they are standing, they are laughing and joking openly and their bikes are over 30 feet away.
What are you going to do now?
Nasty scenario SD
Not quite enough information to work with but it seems that it is only the leader of the bikers is armed and baring his weapon on my family. I’ll assume the other two are armed as well. There is no indication if my family members are tied up of if they are just complying with the armed gang. I will assume that they are not tied and are just complying.
If I had a clear shot that was confident that I can make the on the leader, I would take it. Imediately.
With him down, and as reloading and acquiring one of the remaining pair in my scope, I would straight away shout to the other two: “Leave now or you are next”
Two things would happen at the same time:
1. The other two Biker’s attention will momentarily get focussed in my direction.
2. In that same moment ,at least three members of my family will know I am there, they would know that we are in a win-lose situation and I am confident that they would have the aggression, will and determination to mobilise immediately against the remaining two captors.
The two bikers will respond in one of two ways either drawing arms or turning to run for their bikes.
One or all three of the activated members of my family move to get the gun of the fallen leader
Before the remaining two bikers can react either way, I would immediately slot the one I have in my sight.
Odds are now 4:1 in our favour ….. One remaining biker,( with one comrade down and the other either down or hit), against three close at hand attackers coming at him, with fourth in a hidden location and probably acquiring him in his sights.
One of my three will have gained the gun of the fallen leader, and will engage the still standing biker. My other two will divert their attack to the second one that falls or is hit.
The remaining biker will be confronted with a lot of bad things to consider. He will realise that my family has not rolled over and that we are turning on him. His leader and buddy are down. He has at least three of his captives on the move and he will quickly realise what they are going for his buddies’ weapons. He’ll either freeze into inaction, turn and run, or start to attack my family ( probably one of the three who are moving to get armed)
If he freezes we’ll kill him
If he turns to run we’ll hill him
If he attacks, we’ll kill him
Then we’ll make sure his buddies are dead as well.
Another good days work for my family: More guns and amunition in the store, and three more motor bikes and fuel to add to out collection, and fresh meat on the table tonight !
shoot all three without delay without hesitation, no negotiations.
I accept what Lightspeed says and I agree 100%.
One question for BP?
Why would you do that.
I am not saying I disagree but what would be your reasoning?
they have threatened the family, there is no cover for them to run too to hide so their a sitting(standing) duck, better to take them out now than give them some of your food and they then know your a soft target and they also know your location, and they come back for a second crack! possible with more people (not just 3) next time.
I have to agree with BP, I want you gone and preferably not talking about where I’m located and my numbers.
I’m more interested in where you got the semi automatic .243. Gun laws are a right pain in the arse in this country and I thought that we could only have a semi auto if it was a rimfire .22, I’m not a gun expert, but spent a whole waste of time last year looking into owning a gun, more particulary a rimfire because of the amount of ammo you can keep, plus with a moderator its a lot more quiet than a shotgun, however you need someone to sign you can shoot on their land and it had to be over a certain acreage.
I just re-read the scenario and picked up a couple of critical points that I missed in the early hours this morning:
All the Bikers are armed
My weapon is a semi auto
With that in mind its Bang Bang Bang. I’m with BP on this. End it straight away, without any sentiment or discussion. Just take them out, 1, 2 3.
There is no reson for leniency. My family’s well being overides everything. Letting any of the bikers go would be to invite a return match sometime later at a time and place of their choosing.
Exactly, that was my thinking.
All a bit Rambo but yes given you’re armed with a gun you can have no hope of obtaining in the uk open fire immediately shooting all assailants in order of threat/target availability,i would have taught my family under these cicumstances to bolt and make to a predetermined emergency RV….but any group of thugs who have survived this long would not be so careless in there business , i feel sure they wouldn’t pick such poor ground and there captives would surely be bound.
As this is a UK site, although we have valued input from our friends across the water, it would be interesting for thoughts on the original scenario as posted by SD from a UK point of, that is no guns.
I know SD said you had a semi auto .243 and 20 rounds of ammo. Majority of good guys in UK are not going to have one although it is possible that the bad guys might. And what guns might they have been able to get hold of.
So how do you respond in the UK without a gun.
Just a thought.
The majority of firearms you’re going to encounter in the uk are going to be section 2 shotguns,approx half a million licence holders and 1.5 to 2 million out there . lethal at close range but no real threat beyond 50yds unless they have solid slug rounds , without that rifle in the above scenario i’d say you’re pretty much screwed…i guess you can either go banzai and charge down there/try negotiate with them or my choice wait them out see if you can get the drop on them eventually
There are also a fair amount of legally held firearms in the UK ,stalkers,target shooters and historical collectors , when i held my FAC i had 2 .22lr rifles 1 .17hmr 1 .357 2 .308 rifles and a pair off 12 gauge shotguns thats 8 weapons and most of the guy’s i shot with had similar amounts so there is probably 500,000 firearms out there too…i think there will be more guns circulating than you think
crossbow maybe? trouble with that is the time and effort it takes to recock the thing, that’s if you don’t put your back out doing it wrong. Longbow/recurve/compound bow maybe? arrows are quiet, they wouldn’t hear that coming and you could fire from cover, slingbow-same thing.
crossbow would be great if you only had one aggressor but not multiple , longbow better but you’d need to be very good and i still think you wouldn’t get three arrows off before they were reacting , you can’t shoot a longbow prone and it requires quite a lot of movement which will give your position away , the only real conclusion to draw is don’t get caught cold like this in the first place as chances are its going to end badly.
agree with the last bit: “dont get caught cold like this in the first place”, know your location well and do regular patrol’s and KNOW who is moving around in your area, so that you can take avoiding action BEFORE it gets into the above situation.
Yes I agree but who is going to do the foot patrols?
I assume you already have a group so this would be no problem.
Or is just you with your family down below?
If the S… has only recently HTF then I can see how this situation may have developed.
Other thing is, yes don’t get in the situation in the first place but we all make mistakes and especially under stress and just being ordinary people caught in a situation that we have been in before.
I doubt any of us are superman in disguise?
I would agree with you John if we were talking about the ordinary citizen in the street, but we are preppers, that’s why we come on sites like this to learn how we can prepare and protect our families, learn about the pitfalls and opsec and security, so in the end we have the knowledge not to get caught in this situation in the first place. apart from anything else, these 3 BAD GUYS are bikers, they came on their bikes, they didn’t come on a magic carpet, surely we would have HEARD their bikes a long way off, and taken measures accordingly.
if the shit has only just hit the fan then i’d maybe consider negotiating/capitulating as i feel people won’t have gotten so jaded ruthless and hardhearted yet….provided i had my caches spread about and i was only giving the least valuable one away.
Turn the whole thing around,.. you are in the UK, and I am the biker leader.
I have your family on their knees, and am calling to you to come down,.. its very, very unlikely that you have any weapon that could take me out in one, let alone all three of us, for most people that scope you are looking through sits on an air rifle, maybe a rim fire, but certainly not an automatic weapon
I have the gun pointed at a family member, it would only take me a fraction of a second to shoot him/her dead,..I have nothing to loose, I am a bad guy,… so I shoot, that takes out your guts, all you can think of now is the family member you have lost
I now repeat the question while pointing the gun at the second member of your family
……… What I am trying to get over here is that in this situation you are stuffed, its ok saying you would shoot them all, that only happens in films, and bad films at that, when you start to see yourself as the biker, you will see that he has every card in the pack
You are screwed, you have no choice but to do as he says and walk down,.. as you get closer you may have two chances,….it is possible that walking down in itself is enough for him to let his guard down and give you a slight chance of doing something as you get closer,.. …. either that or lowering the tension through talk and making a stand when they least expect it.
….. but a stand you would have to take, because there is no way they would leave you, and walk away, never come back
I’d be chuffed to have a moderated scoped zeroed ruger 10/22 rimfire in my mits in this scenario and i’d gladly swap it for the original .243
I personally wouldn’t freely put myself in the bag , i think i’d maybe go prep our major cache for the bad guy’s innevitable visit cos sooner or later they are going to extract that info from your nearest and dearest by fair means or foul ana place of your choosing is a big fat plus…you might get lucky and one may come alone(bonus) i leave the details to your imagination but if you can divide then you may get to conquer.
Highlanders reply.
I had not thought of looking at it from the bad guys point but it certainly makes sense, especially from a UK view. May be we are too used to all those American films with their hero’s.
One thought did cross my mind, not nice and if you can, but again this is UK, so may be I have seen too many films.
Booby trap your cache(s)and if you have to tell them where they are and you do end up dead well just may be. Even may be a little poison in some of the food?
Just a thought, but as I say we are in the UK.
In the Scenario posted by SD has you armed with a Semi-auto, 20 rounds of ammunition and a telescopic sight.
The question was, what would you do in that situation.
We’ve gone off at a tangent about UK fire arms laws.
Highlander is right, the Biker gang would be very confident and ruthless, not expeting any meaningful opposition.
So, would you try to difuse the situation with words, comply and give yourself up ( and sealing the fate of your entire family by the way), or would you use that semi auto that the scenario has put in your hands?
OK answer the question as posed. Kill them, no argument, to pleading, no negotiation. Finish.
But the problem is we are still back to the ‘could you really?’
Us in UK are led from birth like sheep, weapons are bad for you, might harm yourself or someone else.
We also tend to be brainwashed by much American thinking particularly TV and films and many think this is real. They pop the bad guys and no problem.
Personally my brain and sense of responsibility and what is right would want to pop these bad guys.
Could I do it, I don’t know and I don’t know what I may feel like after if I did manage to do it.
I am taking another life?
OK just answer the question but not to think any further.
Kill them, no argument, to pleading, no negotiation. Finish.
Its a simple case of kill or be killed with your family as the big motivator….no brainer really.
I know its a little of topic but have you considered getting a shotgun , can be quite cheap(one of mine was £50) licence is £50 for five years , the only things that bar you from ownership are mental health issues and criminal records , join a clay shooting club to practice or if you’re lucky enough and have a shooting school nearby i can go shoot 20 clays for a fiver anytime i fancy .
I guess I should be fair and answer the scenario, as described, even though there would be no chance of having a weapon like that
…. but even if you were to have that weapon, you would have to be extremely good to take down three men who have your family on their knees with guns, before they shoot at least one member of the family.
… but it would be an option, do it and hope that when the first man goes down the others react in such a way as to aid you,… but the trouble is that the other two will hit the deck making them hard to hit, then they shoot your family
Being gun ho with the kill or be killed is far more likely to get your side killed than the bikers,.. they have the advantage, all you have is hope
what about the element of surprise? they expect you to give up not start shooting! maybe they don’t even know you have the gun? most bullies are cowards anyway, first sign of trouble and they will run.
May be, may be not.
Thing is would you be able get off your first shot and make it count, you that good a marksman, and then get off another two in quick order so that you have taken out all three without them killing at least one of yours.And so it could go on and on.
Another thing, most bullies may be cowards and first sign of trouble run, but that is today with law and order as we have it. We are assuming this is post SHTF though it does not specifically say so, which would be a whole new ball game.So don’t bank on them running. Plus you miss, the leader does not run, even if the others do, he shoots one or more of your family, you now distraught and can you still aim straight?
I think we are just nit picking.
We assume this situation is post SHTF, what would you do.
The results will be what ever they turn out to be in any given situation.
If your are a military trained marksman odds are extremely good, if not then it’s all down to circumstances and luck.
In the end the answer to question that I think most would agree on is try your best to kill them, no messing, no debate, no pussyfooting.
End of debate.
which is what I said in the first place.
The parts for the semi auto was sent from the US by one of your pals. The parts we are short of are small enough and with you already having the barrel you can convert it in your shed.
However, I read in the papers every day in London that kids are shooting each other with semi auto pistols. They are clearly available so why isn’t my .243. Not every country is as mickey mouse as the UK.
.243 was primarily a deer Hunting round in the UK and as such virtually nobody made or stocked full metal jacket / solid rounds for it and pre the banning of semi auto rifles in the UK then nobody would have used this caliber for practical rifle so as I mentioned before I bet there probably aren’t any .243 semi autos in the UK at all now(not that many firms make semi autos in .243 worldwide)
Well in that case it does change the picture a bit with a automatic weapon I would take the shots, leader first, I managed to make `marksman` for most of my Army career, so would feel reasonably sure of hitting what I aimed at.
…. but a happy ending would still hinge on a few things, I would hope that when the first target goes down, it shocked the other two, either freezing them or making them duck, if this happened then I would have a chance at the other two
………. depending on my position, I could also take a shot at the bikes in the background, an exploding tank would sure to make them spin around, giving me the same opportunity
Trying to avoid the situation in the first place would be better though
as I said before, I know motorbikes and I know bikers, they are not the most quiet of vehicles and being a biker myself I can hear one miles away, post shtf when things are quieter we will hear them from a long way away, even if they slow down and try to be quiet as they get nearer we will already have heard them, we would have plenty of time to get the family into the house/retreat/BOL and get our weapons ready,i think the element of surprise will be with us not them.
OK, I agree on noise but that does not answer the original question which was.
You are looking down at three armed bikers through a scope. In front of them is your entire family on their knees. The leader is calling for you to come down or he will kill every one of them. He promises that you can all go free if you give yourself up and tell them where your food is.
There is just you, nobody is coming to help, with a semi auto .243 and 20 rounds of ammo. They is no cover where they are standing, they are laughing and joking openly and their bikes are over 30 feet away.
What are you going to do now?
May you were a bit silly to say the least to have got into this situation in the first place, but you are so you must deal with it as best you can.
Answer is to kill them, if you can with no debate,no questions, no pussyfooting around.
That my answer, end of postings
which again is what I said, simple, straight, no messing about, bang, bang, bang.
sorry to ofend but god most people are dreamers.
you can in this very country of ours buy anything you want if you have the cash?
crooks trade for money and weapons are just like any other item with a value, so any gun or weapons is on the table but just not to the law abiding person.
also the police and army would die as well what would happen to their weopons ?? what about the forces going off on their own in little groups.
lets take these rosie movie glasses off and see the world for what a bad place it is.
as for the thread i would start shooting and take our chance because your all dead anyway by complying